Monday, August 15, 2011

Mixed Seating, Mixed Dancing ??

Jokingly, I asked a friend of mine who is engaged, if she will be setting me up with guys.

Her answer: "My wedding will be mixed seating... so yea!!!!!"

Loved it. 

Finally meeting boys without having to bite my nails over a cup of coffee or Facebook stalking.

Of course there will be separate dance floor so I will not be dancing in a white pretty dress waiting to be chosen by a handsome stranger. Gone are the days of girls dancing in the fields... By the way, how was that okay?? 

It somewhat reminds me of how my grand mother met my grand father. She went to Shul on Rosh Hashana and her father who was a well renowned Rabbi told her to carefully look down into the men section and pick out the man she wants for husband. She picked my grand father and here we are today. 
I feel like doing the same ....


  1. I already have a post on mixed seating. May you have better joy than I did.

    Why shouldn't have dancing in the fields been okay? The girls would dance together, and the men would survey the situation. The ancient Jews and current Jews don't exactly line up in many things.

  2. Actually, the most famous story of a marriage caused by the chamish asar beav dancing was shaul hamelech, whose wife chased him! He didnt feel it was proper and was therefore standing on the side, and she went running after him. Thats why he got upset at his son yehonasan he called him 'ben navas hamardus'.

  3. @princess lea: I just read your post. Oh boy, not happening lol. My friend is chilled, its just a way for us to meet without having to go on a date which i'm totally cool with. Much better that way

    @ the professor: I am honored you commented :) Got upset at yehonasan because?

  4. who wad 18 wife? im not sure of the connection you'remaking. He was upset at yonasan who was friends with dovid because of... wifes? girls dancing?

  5. I was wondering the same thing. How could such a thing pass as Tznius in any time?

  6. When he got upset at yonason he called him ben navas hamardus, son of the woman who chased. He was making almost fun (thats not the word im looking for) of the concept that his wife chased after him, using it in a derogatory context.

  7. @kindred: perhaps it is still Tznius but the fruming out of our societies forbids it?:)

    @professor: K so nothing to do with the fact that he was friends w/ dovid. Is there any other reference to Shaul's wife in derogatory terms?

  8. To set it straight, because yonason was friends with dovid, something whhich shaul disapproved of, shaul called him the son of the women who chased, making fun of both him and his mother who had ran after him.

    Re. the whole dancing thing, as far as we know, the idea of the men watching and grabbing wives only happened one year, and that was due to extreme circumstances.

  9. Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification :)

  10. Tznius is a concept, I have noticed, that differs amongst various perspectives. And in terms of Biblical precedent, it was apparently permitted for it to be abstained from in the pursuit of a necessary marriage (Rus lying in wait for Boaz, Tamar masquerading as a lady of the night).

    If a pursuit results in a marriage and children, I believe there is no way one can frown upon the end result. I think Shaul may have been using the label as one of praise rather than censure.

  11. If you look at how Rashi, the metzudas david and the metzudas tziyon explain it, you see thats not the case. It was not being said in a way of praise at all. See shmuel alef passuk lamed.

  12. > Gone are the days of girls dancing in the fields... By the way, how was that okay??

    The halacha as codified in the Tur and Shulchan Aruch says that a man is allowed to look at an unmarried woman to see if he's attracted to her in a "I wanna marry you" sort of way.

  13. Really? What is the exact source?
    Look at a woman, fine. How about the fact that they were dancing?

  14. Yedid, Interesting post! But I do wonder, if we did have the "field dancing" method today if we would be longing to actually sit in a cafe and have a decent conversation with a perfect stranger instead of being hauled off to the unknown over some random dude's shoulder...

  15. @JBD: you have to admit that does sound way more romantic :)
    But anyways, what did they do in the old days? they didn't go out for coffee. ah the shteibel life....

  16. ohh, jumping a few centuries are we? I'll give you a story to demonstrate what they did in the shteebl - boy (14) travels to his wedding with his parents - and while he's at it, to meet this girl for the first time. His brother, (13) hides in the wagon to come along. Boy peeks at the girl, standing under the chuppah and refuses to marry her. ouch. brother pops out and says: I'll marry her! And so they did. Welcome to the shteebl :) True story. I'll stick to coffee lol

  17. Now, Professor, I want to calmly present my argument: Shaul was angry because Yehonasan was abandoning his hereditary right to be King and was supporting Dovid instead.

    30: Saul’s anger flared up at Jonathan and he said to him, “You son of a perverse and rebellious woman! Don’t I know that you have sided with the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you?

    31 As long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom will be established. Now send someone to bring him to me, for he must die!”

    32 “Why should he be put to death? What has he done?” Jonathan asked his father.

    33 But Saul hurled his spear at him to kill him. Then Jonathan knew that his father intended to kill David.

    Shaul also says that it would be shame upon Yehonoson's mother for his actions. Then he throws a spear at his son.

    Considering how in more than one place Shaul is shown not to behave properly, I'm not exactly sure how extracting from this story what tznius is is apt.

    In the end, Tu B'Av happened with the blessing of our rabbanim, and the reaction shouldn't be that they did something wrong, but rather maybe we're projecting our own modern mindset (seriously, whenever I hear the word "tznius" I want to scream. It differs in whichever community one is in, and it has little to do with skirt lengths).

  18. Yes, shaul did yell that at his son out of anger, however he yelled that, and the meforshim explain what that means. He at the time of the dancing hadnt felt it was proper.

    Did it have rabbinic approval, yes, to a degree. There is actually little detail known about what exactly went on there. The gemara doesnt fully inform us of all the details of what went on there, for how long it went on, etc.

    {And agreed, tznius is a mindset, not a skirt length :) }

  19. Professon and Princess: Interesting, I do not recall this story, but there is another time when dancing is brought up in connection to Shaul, when David was dancing with the Aron and his wife Michal (Shaul's daughter) said that her father would never do that; it wasn't befitting him as king (to dance with the common people), and she was punished for that. Apparently, Shaul had something against dancing in public - for whatever that represented to him - perhaps he saw it as letting loose (don't know enough about this topic).

  20. The first story took place before shaul was king. And, he wasnt the one who would have been dancing. Also, the whole chamisha asar beav event had more to it than just the dancing. U had the good looking girls calling out 'seu marom eyneychem', the more homely girls calling out sheker hachaim vihevel hayofi, etc. Shaul just didnt find it proper.